McClellan, McKiernan, you know, one of those Army guys . . . .

by: Brandon Friedman

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 00:26:17 AM EDT


Wading into the debate over the future of the war in Afghanistan, Alaska Governor Sarah Palin tried for a moment to sound as if she knew what she was talking about.  This is what we got:

MODERATOR: Governor?

PALIN: Well, first, McClellan did not say definitively the surge principles would not work in Afghanistan. Certainly, accounting for different conditions in that different country and conditions are certainly different. We have NATO allies helping us for one and even the geographic differences are huge but the counterinsurgency principles could work in Afghanistan. McClellan didn't say anything opposite of that. The counterinsurgency strategy going into Afghanistan, clearing, holding, rebuilding, the civil society and the infrastructure can work in Afghanistan. And those leaders who are over there, who have also been advising George Bush on this have not said anything different but that.

Setting aside for a minute the fact that the substance of Palin's babbling, incoherent response was wrong, she apparently got her centuries and wars crossed.

For those who don't know, this is General McClellan:

And this is General McKiernan, the officer to whom I presume Palin was actually referring:

Now, in most cases, this type of oversight on the part of a politician could be dismissed--maybe even attributed to nerves.  But when Afghanistan is exploding and on the verge of failure, details matter.  Facts matter.  Being familiar with the situation matters--a lot.  The troops depend on it.

If you're going to accuse your opponent of waving the "white flag of surrender" in front of the entire country, then you had better damn well be able to back it up with foreign policy expertise.  And, as expected, Palin fell far short of that mark.  Instead, we were treated to more of the same clueless carelessness that has marked the last eight years of the Bush administration.  

This is a woman who can accuse her opponents of cowardice, but at the same time, can't be bothered to learn the name of America's commander in Afghanistan.  It's remarkably sad, and it's an insult to the troops serving there.  Likewise, it denotes that same aloofness--that all-too-familiar lack of curiosity and concern for what's actually occurring on the ground in both theaters.  And for those of us who've served overseas under the leadership of George W. Bush, it's a feeling we know well.
Brandon Friedman :: McClellan, McKiernan, you know, one of those Army guys . . . .
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McClellan, McKiernan, you know, one of those Army guys . . . . | 53 comments
OMG (4.00 / 3)
I totally thought that when I heard her, I had to go to Fort McClellan back in the day for a new ID card before I moved to Germany in the 80's.

I put up what I intended as snark over at my place but realized when I was done that I wasn't really joking.  How sad is that?  Gotta run back and put in a back link here to your stellar explanation...:)

Yes, I am the Queen...

Repeat, repeat!!! (4.00 / 2)
Also heard that and immediately thought of Gen McClellan from the Civil war.

But- our boy- Bosniacs?!!!  

Sounds weird, but it's (4.00 / 1)
correct.  
[ Parent ]
"our boy" knows what he's talking about... (0.00 / 0)
...why do you find that so hard to admit?
[ Parent ]
Touché (0.00 / 0)
Brandon- thanks, you learn something new everyday.

Elizabeth- "admit" ???

[ Parent ]
Would 'acknowledge' be better? :-) (0.00 / 0)
You had me going there for a minute - actually looked it up in a dictionary.

That's OK, you can redeem yourself by saying something NICE about Joe Biden!...maybe about how we can thank Senator Biden for spearheading the Nato action in Bosnia to stop a genocide - he had to slap President Clinton up side the head a few times, ya know! - that has led to Serbs, Croats and BOSNIAKS living together famously (comparatively speaking, of course) for the last many years.

[ Parent ]
don't know if i would (4.00 / 1)
go so far as to say that she was referencing a civil war general...i think that is attributing too much to her by assuming she has military history knowledge....

but, you're right on brandon...considering mccain's health and age, she could be our next CiC if they get elected, so you would hope that she would know the names of the leaders on the ground...but even that is too much to ask too considering that they keep point to words like victory, white flag of surrender, in direct contravention to what petraeus has said...

We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America. -Barack Obama

That's what my wife said. (4.00 / 1)
As I was preparing this piece, she looks over my shoulder and goes, "What are you talking about?  That woman has no idea who McClellan from the Civil War is."
[ Parent ]
so who is mcclellan? (4.00 / 1)
scott mcclellan? some other insider...it's all very shady...

and why oh why aren't more current service members scared shitless of her?  it's a real possibility if mccain is in office that he could die...i have two thoughts on that so far...one, she will go crazy power hungry and do all sorts of things with the military that make no sense, or someone else will be pulling the strings behind the scenes...question would be who?  maybe it is this mcclellan character....

We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America. -Barack Obama

[ Parent ]
You Hit It......... (0.00 / 0)
someone else will be pulling the strings behind the scenes...question would be who?

As for string pullin, think reagan and jr bush!

As to who, think the same players as are under above with a little fresh young blood already brought in and still trying to achieve the goals or bury the past crimes!

On the past crimes, one example, think reason Saddam was tried and hanged in Iraq and not tried in the Hague!

'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

[ Parent ]
What's scary about Mac (4.00 / 2)
Is this, self described knowledgeable about War and Occupations, says now he seeks out her advice on a host of issues.

John is what he is, an ex pilot, sorry for what's coming unless you're a chopper pilot, but Pilots Don't Study nor Care to Understand Ground Tactics and in any Guerilla Insurgency they become more strategic as one could be walking or dealing with an enemy and not know it.

He does know about being kept captive after being shot down, prison is prison, war is war.

Now he's the Vet, at a time of two long running bloody occupations, one would Hope he's seeking Advice on both from Ground Commanders, though it's taken even them way to long to re-learn the lessons and mistakes of 'Nam and the Soviet/Afghan debacle, instead he Says he seeks Advice from an Airhead and frankly Lousy politician!

That's not Good!!

'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

Aside from the obvious "McClellan" gaffe (4.00 / 2)
Palin's entire answer can be summed up into two sentences:  "Hell I don't know!  Try anything!"

"Armed forces abroad are of little value unless there is prudent counsel at home."

Marcus Tullius Cicero 106 BC-43 BC

Does ANYONE around here have anything to say (4.00 / 1)
about what the other guy said tonight...you know...the guy who has your backs and supports the issues that are so important and close to your hearts?

You guys are really something else.

Yes, Elizabeth, I do. (4.00 / 3)
I thought Biden was appropriately restrained and congenial toward Palin , and when he did unload he did it on the right guy -- McCain! His restraint toward Palin actually shone light on what she is, which is just a cheerleader for John McCain, "the maverick." So, when Biden did attack, he attacked McCain. That was brilliant.

I'm especially happy that Biden focussed on McCain's record of consistently voting with Bush and against the troops and vets. He  aimed at the right things and let Palin just prattle on about "the maverick, the maverick, he's a maverick, we're mavericks..." Biden showed decidedly in the last five minutes of the debate that McCain is no maverick and I'd say he effectively busted the myth that McCain is a friend to vets. He performed very well.
_______________

Now, this is unrelated but I just gotta ask.

I'm a Southerner and admittedly I may be prejudiced, but I'll ask anyway: Does Sarah Palin's voice grate on anybody else's nerves? Christ! that woman's voice could curdle milk and peel paint!

[ Parent ]
Oh yeah (4.00 / 2)
My 15 year old asked if there was such a thing as a conservative accent...LOL

Yes, I am the Queen...
[ Parent ]
OMG she sounds like a cat stuck in a meat grinder. (4.00 / 1)
Trying not to be prejudiced, but if I have to listen to that voice for four years, somebody pass me the knitting needle, I want to puncture my eardrums, please.
[ Parent ]
Not that Bush's accent... (4.00 / 1)
...is music to anybody's ears. But what you have to understand is, down here, we have two accents, Southern Smart and Southern Stupid. His is Southern Stupid.
[ Parent ]
YES, yes it is! (0.00 / 0)
That's what I try to explain to people I know from the midwest and northeast...there is a difference.  But she does have this weird combo of Minnesota and southern stupid accent.  I've never been to Alaska, so maybe it is from there....?

We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America. -Barack Obama
[ Parent ]
Gage, it's not her voice that bothers me... (4.00 / 2)
...not at all. But, I'm a big FARGO fan! :-)

So, tell me...how does Biden play in the south, particularly among moderate Republicans and Independents?

P.S. Thanks very much for your response - I was really beginning to wonder why everyone around here seems to avoid Obama/Biden...like the damned plague, for God's sake! Jeeeze!

[ Parent ]
Palin's (4.00 / 2)
Running for the VP Spot and should have been gone after just like Anyone running for that position, she's giving her Resume not some Beauty Contests questions and answers!

This crap about Sexism and Gental Handling of a women candidate is just that Crap, as I said to a few yesterday, If She Can't Handle The Fire Than Get Out Of The Kitchen, and That's Not Meant As Sexist, I Cook and So Do Alot Of Men!!

Palin's setting back her sisters advances, something they shouldn't have found a need to fight for, by years, as is the GOP talking machine!!

'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

[ Parent ]
Search me, Elizabeth. (4.00 / 2)
As far as I can see, there are no moderate Republicans down here. There's an awful lot of Democrats who vote like Republicans though, "Blue Dog Democrats". I don't know how Biden figures with them. One thing I can tell you that we have down here that is going to give the McCain ticket a run for its money is lots and lots of poor people if we can mobilize them. The "Hope" thing might just be a cliche to people in the North, but down here, hope is about all some people have to cling to. Remember, Obama carried Louisiana over Clinton in the Democratic primary, so even if the pundits enjoy making fun of it, the hope message resonates pretty well with a lot of folks here.
_________
Jim, I don't mean it was appropriate for Biden to restrain himself with Palin because she's a young woman. I think it was appropriate because his restraint said loud and clear that she's a non-player in all of this. She was put on the ticket to activate the religious right and the stupid. She doesn't even know what John McCain the Maverick's policies are, let alone does she have a voice in them. Taking her on full-throttle would be like shooting fish in a barrel. She's not really on ticket even. Biden went after McCain because McCain is the only one on that ticket really running.  
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Gage (4.00 / 2)
I'll be watching the state polls - all of them - like a hawk!...so to speak...
[ Parent ]
Watch (4.00 / 2)
Not only the polls for President but also the local runs for Federal spots.

I'm a New Yorker, Indie, and have been down here in NC, north of Charlotte for about 13 years now, still wondering why, but you can feel a change, even with the Blue Dogs, many being abit more confused than before, but leaning Well Away from rovian GOP politics!

'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

[ Parent ]
Oh (4.00 / 3)
And the reports about the youngsters moving away from the fundi chistian rants seem to be true as well, at least the voting age ones I've met and talked to!

We may be watching Two destructive ideologies, changed dramatically from what they once were, dying on the vine, what will re-place, hopefully commonsense and a return to critical thought.

'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

[ Parent ]
Hey! (4.00 / 4)
I'm in the south too! Northwest Florida! My whole family are Republican (except one brother and myself are Dems), But I do not hold party lines when I vote!

All republicans in my family (except my sister and brother in law who are air force and one other brother who lives in Alaska, they are still voting Replican) unfortunatly! The rest are all voting Obama/Biden ticket!

I thought Biden did great last night, he was disiplined, he did not talk at great lengths like he sometimes does, he answered the qeustions asked, I'm glad he did not attack back because it made her look like an idiot, thats all she had was attack mode but she had nothing to back it up! I was very happy when she said what she did about the VP slot, cheney and  presiding over the senate and power, that Biden spoke up strongly and quickly what the Constitution says about it! Another mistake for her if you ask me! Also did you notice when Biden brought up McCain and Spain, she looked a bit taken aback and did not say shit!

My other thought, since down in the south I have seen an ugly that I thought had gotten better, but since I started volunteering at Obama HQ it has been extremly prevalent, white  Republicans down here are ugly, venomous and ignorant. Volunteers that go out and canvass are in fear of their safety, they are venomous when you call them, they are going out all over and stealing Obama signs and burning them in fires! I have actually decided not to work in HQ at night because my mother and other parents have been scared for safety reasons. There are people who are afraid when you call them and ask who their supporting because they don't know who their really talking too.

There is HOPE here! Maybe secretly, but HOPE is here and alive!

We also had trouble watching debate because we thought Palin would never shut up, she just went on and on talking, as far as I'm concerned about nothing of any substance, then to have to listen to her screaching voice and the snouty inuindoes just made me wanna puke!

The fear of her being President scares me to death, I will work hard on my end to keep that from happening!

Yours,
Boots

[ Parent ]
so true.... (0.00 / 0)
I could hardly stand growing up in South Carolina.  A vast majority of my southern roots votes republican because of their "family values", but this election is even worse because Obama is black.  They are one-issue voters for sure this year, and that issue is the color of his skin.

But I have hope too for the south.  My mom who still lives in Charleston (where the civil war started) says that women are her church are turning democratic BECAUSE of Palin being so offensive to them.  While I would hope that they would vote for Obama because he is fabulous, I am at least glad that they are not voting against him because he is black.

Thanks for keeping hope alive down there!

We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America. -Barack Obama

[ Parent ]
Navy, (4.00 / 2)
I'm apalled by what I've seen! All of us, my brothers and sister being Navy grew up all over states and other countries. None of my family were born in the south! Unfortunatly, my parents moved here when they retired, my Mom now widowed hates it here!:) My soon to be 102 year old Grandmother loves Obama/Biden ticket!

All I know is we have a  big lot of unregistered voters, and in Florida we a a law( no match, no vote), if there is anything that does'nt match up like if you go by "Bill" and you name is william, you cant vote! We also have counties that have not switched over to paper. Florida is a toss up state this election, if we can get it go blue, we can make Obama our next President and CIC! Looks much better to me than the other picture!

Elizabeth, I've always been a Biden fan, I would have voted for him as President if he had made the cut, I also trust him totally to be able to run our Country if anything were to happen, "God Forbid".

Yours,
Boots

[ Parent ]
OH! I forgot Navy Blue (4.00 / 1)
GO NAVY! GO ALL!

Boots

[ Parent ]
I don't think there is much to be said (4.00 / 2)
because Biden's performance said it all.  Biden showed what real leadership looks like and the polls show it.  Palin on the other hand, with her folksy style and constant winking looked more like she was running for Miss America than she was Vice President.  

Debate poll says Biden won, Palin beat expectations

The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. said 51 percent of those polled thought Biden did the best job, while 36 percent thought Palin did the best job.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI...

"Armed forces abroad are of little value unless there is prudent counsel at home."

Marcus Tullius Cicero 106 BC-43 BC

[ Parent ]
I guess Biden just can't win... (4.00 / 1)
He makes a media-perceived gaffe and people can't shut up about it, even though it only serves to betray their own lack of personal integrity, character and intelligence.

Then he turns in another TYPICAL stellar performance in a debate where he showcases his real leadership and depth and breadth of knowledge...and NOTHING gets said because, well, his performance says it all.

Oh, man...could someone just shoot me!

[ Parent ]
I feel your pain. With Palin we get another "she met lowered (4.00 / 2)
expectations" and with Biden we get he met stellar expectations and it isn't even worth commenting on.  Thanks to W., we have a new low for our leaders and she has met it and it is A-OKAY!

Make wars unprofitable and you make them impossible.
~A. Philip Randolph


[ Parent ]
Carissa, surely you're not saying that that is what explains the silence (4.00 / 1)
about Biden on VetVoice, are you?

That's what I was getting at. For example, in this very post, Brandon says NOTHING about Biden.

Why is that?

[ Parent ]
Too Much (0.00 / 0)
Can be said about Palin!!

Bidens got a long record, well known, what would you like to said, Say It!!

'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

[ Parent ]
I've already said more than my fair share... (4.00 / 1)
Biden supporters like myself take pleasure in hearing his praises sung by others who will then promise to vote for Obama/Biden and try to persuade all of their family, friends, and all passers by to do the same! That's just the way we are. :-)
[ Parent ]
I guess I see Biden in a different way (4.00 / 1)
To me, Biden is a leader who needs no introduction because his reputation, knowledge and leadership abilities are quite obvious as soon as he walks into a room just as they were during the debate.  For me, Obama and Biden are like well respected Commanders.  They have proven themselves and that always precedes them where ever they go.  Nothing needs to be said because you know they have the situation well in hand and you can count on them.  You won't hear the whispers in the background saying "These guys don't know shit." or "Oh no, here comes that incompetent Biden" but you do hear similar comments being made in regards to Palin though and those comments are getting louder by the day.

"Armed forces abroad are of little value unless there is prudent counsel at home."

Marcus Tullius Cicero 106 BC-43 BC

[ Parent ]
But, something does need to be said, don't you think... (4.00 / 2)
...you know, to convince those not yet persuaded by the many attributes of Obama/Biden...now, to be sure, I'm not talking about the likes of LT Nixon, geesh...but there are some folks around here and many who may not comment but who visit to see what veterans think about the task at hand. Sure, they will see a lot of criticism of McCain/Palin...but a few words of praise directed at Obama/Biden sure couldn't hurt anything!
[ Parent ]
I agree with you there (4.00 / 2)
I guess I see Biden in that way because to me, its already a given.  There are many things to be said about Biden but one that always gets me is the fact that he knows the issues and has great ideas to move the country forward.  He is a no non-sense kind of a guy in my opinion.  Add him to Obama and you have a very powerful team.

On another note, I did like where Biden brought up the fact that he was a single father.  That to can strike a cord for all military poeple who are dealing wtih the same thing due to being deployed.  

"Armed forces abroad are of little value unless there is prudent counsel at home."

Marcus Tullius Cicero 106 BC-43 BC

[ Parent ]
Talking in circles (4.00 / 2)
There is something else that really irks me about Palin "doggone it".  She reminds me so much of a pet dog that my family once had.  We always tried to teach him a new trick but he just wasn't able to learn them.  So, he resorted to what he did know when we, for example commanded him to sit.  He would run in circles and chase his tail.  Sure it was entertaining to watch him do his only trick but it wasn't what we were looking for either.

Palin responds to questions like those concerning Afghanistan in a similar fashion.  She doesn't have a definative answer so she responds in the only way she knows how.  She talks in circles.  Now I'm sure some people find that cute but its definately not a confidence booster for the military that is for sure.  

"Armed forces abroad are of little value unless there is prudent counsel at home."

Marcus Tullius Cicero 106 BC-43 BC

Will Palin anger conservatives? (4.00 / 3)
What I found bizarre was that Palin clearly refuted some common conservative principles.  For example:

-Support for civil rights for gay couples.  This seems contrary to the Defense of Marriage Act.

-Support for permitting bankruptcy courts to reduce both mortgage interest rates and principal.  This not a conservative position, and it is not John McCain's position either.

This comes after her statement (in the Couric interview) that the Constitution creates a fundamental right to privacy.  That is poison to religious conservatives (who hate the fact that this right underlies federal abortion jurisprudence) and to legal conservatives (who typically refer to the idea of finding unenumerated rights in the Constitution as the dreaded "judicial activism" or "legislating from the bench").  Of course, Palin went on to say that she thinks the states should be permitted to independently define the scope of the federal right (which is absurd), so maybe she just got confused.

All in all, it's very weird.

McCain campaign says Palin blew it on the "bankruptcy courts" (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
Gay Rights... (0.00 / 0)
This is from what I "heard". She did not allow for marriage or civil unions but acknowledge that some make the "choice" to live that lifestyle and that she knows some gays.

Think that this was a carefully crafted answer to try to negate the link she has to the dominionist church and make her come across as at least accepting of those who choose to be gay. Throw that in the same can of worms with her attack on the local librarian [but "I didn't want to burn books" after she was challenged in her attempt] and charging victims for 'rape kits' in the state with the highest per capita rape rate.

[ Parent ]
I wish the moderator would have pressed for more detail... (0.00 / 0)
I think you're right that she opposes gay marriage and civil unions (which are both matters of state law anyway), but what surprised me was that she seemed (from what I could tell) to support federal recognition of gay couples for the purposes of receiving the rights and benefits under federal law.  Biden tried to pin her down on it, but she refused to clarify.  It's possible, of course, that Palin doesn't really understand that debating the merits of gay marriage is different than debating the question of federal recognition of gay couples properly married or "unioned" under state law.
[ Parent ]
The Palins set up the debate rules which were different than the (4.00 / 1)
ones used in the first Obama/McCain debate. Gwen Ifill was pretty much 'unable' to ask follow-ups or challenge answers with the rules that the GOP demanded.

Palin framed her answers at the start of this debate by saying she would answer how she wanted not how the moderator or Joe wanted.

The GOP also attacked Gwen's creds as an impartial moderator citing her new book about 'the new Black politicians' which includes Obama. They acted like they just found out that Gwen was writing this book. Just more BS used as control leverage.

[ Parent ]
It's easy to pick on the name thing (4.00 / 5)
- maybe too easy! Hey, I trip over my words sometimes.

But I care about this part of her response much more: speaking of Afghanistan, Palin noted "...conditions are certainly different. We have NATO allies helping us for one..."

Though OIF is not a NATO operation, the following NATO members do have at least some troops in Iraq: UK, Poland, Romania, Denmark, Norway. So to imply that we have no NATO allies helping us in Iraq seems to me a slap in the face to the dwindling MN part of the MNF. Or just ignorant.

"Or just ignorant." (4.00 / 1)
Nuff said.
[ Parent ]
I thought she was talking about..... (4.00 / 2)
Scotty McClellan! I figured she was in LIAR mode and that is how she slipped up.

I feel more like I do now than when I first got here!
That's exactly what I was thinking! (0.00 / 0)


We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America. -Barack Obama
[ Parent ]
Actually McClellan said... (0.00 / 0)

All quiet along the Potomac.

The Gov's being nitpicked to excess (0.00 / 0)
The statement of McLellan rather than McKiernan was a simple mistake. In fact, Keith Olbermann made a huge deal about this and made several simple mistakes in the process of explaining who General McKiernan is. Olbermann stated "We don't really know who McClellan is supposed to have been. The general in charge of-working under Centcom commander General David Petraeus, the top NATO commander in Afghanistan, is General David McKiernan." You can find this quote in his show transcript at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27...

GEN McKiernan is the NATO/ISAF Commanding General, but he does not work for US Centcom. The Centcom/OEF forces are only a small slice of the forces in Afghanistan and the NATO/ISAF Command does not fall under Centcom or GEN Petraeus.

So what does this mean? While I generally think Keith is a blowhard, it's not because he made this small mistake in understanding the chain of command in the Afghan theater. It's also not because he incorrectly identified her son, Track Palin as a member of the Alaska National Guard when he is in fact in the regular Army.  I submit it has the same gravity as Gov Palin's mistatement of "McLellan", which is none.

Keith Olbermann isn't running (0.00 / 0)
for Vice President of the United States of America, either.  She is.
[ Parent ]
You are correct (0.00 / 0)
However I think it highlights the hypocrisy of pointing out small mistakes.  It is folly to drawn judgement from them.
[ Parent ]
In war--like the two (0.00 / 0)
we're fighting now--small mistakes can mean life or death.  Regardless, these aren't small mistakes when it's a pattern.  Check this out:


[ Parent ]
Tell me you're not trying to reason (0.00 / 0)
via silly propaganda video.  You are right, mistakes in war can be deadly, but simply mistatement of names are not among those.  I been to both theaters of this war, and not a single mispronunciation of Mahuyodeen or Asghar has tilted the balance.

If you want to nitpick, Sen Obama never pronounces Ahmadinejad's name correctly either, he like 99% of the non-Farsi/Dari/Arabic speaking world, doesn't pronounce the "Ah" portion correct.

Call me crazy, but I'm not going to draw any huge conclusions from this, and I'm not swayed by silly YouTube clips.

[ Parent ]
McClellan, McKiernan, you know, one of those Army guys . . . . | 53 comments
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