Torture Advocates Will Set the Military Back for Generations

by: Brandon Friedman

Thu Apr 30, 2009 at 16:59:37 PM EDT


Know what these photos are?

These are Iraqi troops surrendering by the thousand to U.S. forces during the first Gulf War in 1991.  These drafted Iraqi fighters chose to turn themselves over to Americans in droves because they knew they'd be treated better by U.S. troops than by their own government.  They had faith in us that we wouldn't execute them, that we'd feed them and give them water, and that we'd provide them with shelter.  To them, facing capture was a much better option than either retreating back to the care of Saddam and his sadistic sons or of fighting to the death.

This worked out well, because it meant that we, as Americans, wouldn't have to face a determined, cornered enemy that could've drawn out the war and inflicted unnecessary casualties on our side.  It was seen as a great victory.

Know what this is?

This is a shot of German troops surrendering to Americans during World War Two.  At the end of that war, German soldiers were so desperate to surrender to the Americans or the British that they actually fought to break out of areas on the Eastern Front just so they wouldn't have to surrender to the Russians.  They knew that inhumane treatment, a long train ride to Siberia, and a likely miserable death awaited them if they didn't make it.

This also worked out well for us, because it meant that we, as Americans, had a much easier time in Germany than the Russians did.  The Russians--battling men who were literally fighting for their lives during the push to Berlin--suffered 80,000 troops killed.  On the Western Front, however, U.S. forces never faced that level of resistance.

Once upon a time, America was known around the world for its powerful, benevolent nature when handling captured enemy fighters.  Even our adversaries knew they could hoist the white flag and expect to be treated humanely.  In turn, this made them more likely to give up sooner.  And it not only kept American soldiers out of countless bloody fights, but it made victory and success all that much easier for our troops.

For years, rank and file soldiers and insurgents around the world viewed surrender to the Americans as a reasonable option when finding themselves outgunned.

And then we went and did this:

Now, our opponents won't feel secure in surrendering to U.S. forces.  In fact, I wouldn't expect to see images like those of the surrendering soldiers above for decades.  It's just not going to happen anymore.  If a hot war breaks out in Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, or anywhere else, we can expect to face an enemy that simply won't accept surrender.  No Taliban fighter, no starving North Korean soldier in his right mind will surrender willingly if he thinks he's going to be tortured or beaten to death.  Instead, he'll prefer a fight to the death, even as he becomes cornered.  And this will get Americans killed.

This is what Bush administration torture policies have wrought.  We no longer hold the moral high ground.  We borrowed against it in an effort to get a few false confessions from Khalid Sheikh Mohamed, Abu Zubaydah, and others.  And the next time we face an organized fighting force in the field, the cost of doing so will become readily apparent.

Not only does torture not work, but it directly endangers our troops fighting now.

Brandon Friedman :: Torture Advocates Will Set the Military Back for Generations
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Well said (4.00 / 1)
This would be a great ad in the NYTimes and the WaPo. Full page. I'd say LTE but it's already published material.

[ Parent ]
Torture: Now Known (0.00 / 0)
Tortured by the past

There's a disturbing link between Gitmo and the interrogation tactics I used in Vietnam.

When Bush administration lawyers wrote their memos authorizing extreme interrogation tactics at Guantanamo, they had to conjure up horrible images: Prisoners gagging and sputtering as their interrogators reproduced the sensation of drowning. Human heads slammed repeatedly into walls. Insect-phobic prisoners cowering in fear in 8-by-10-foot cages.

How can the lawyers live with those images? And what damage did the interrogators who used the techniques sustain to their souls? >>>>>Rest Here



'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

We've Already Seen The Results Of Our Actions.. (0.00 / 0)
What goes on within the invaded and occupied countries is known long before we hear it here, and now in the whole region there.

Reason you won't see American or Western POW's in these times and forward.

Anyone captured is Tortured and Killed Brutally, is it because of our own actions, that can be argued and debated as it's only speculation for what has been happening.

But one thing is perfectly clear, We Can No Longer Condemn Others For How They Treat Us Or Their Own, That's Now Off the Table!!

'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson


Bullshit (0.00 / 0)
AQ and the Taliban were killing and slaughtering" EPWs" before we even got into this war.

[ Parent ]
And our (0.00 / 0)
actions still do not explain AQ and the Taliban's genocidal actions towards groups like the Shia. Sorry but using our mistakes to spin AQ and the Taliban is an absolute crock and you know it.  

[ Parent ]
Compelling argument (4.00 / 1)
Hadn't even thought about it and certainly haven't heard it on the airwaves.

The 'Architects' (0.00 / 0)
The CIA's $1,000 a Day Specialists on Waterboarding, Interrogations

As the secrets about the CIA's interrogation techniques continue to come out, there's new information about the frequency and severity of their use and a new focus on two private contractors, Bruce Jessen ...


'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

I will not disagree (0.00 / 0)
that torture is wrong and detrimental to our cause, nor will I deny that there is some truth to your argument. But at the same end, you are clearly spinning this and oversimplifying the issue. First of all, I highly doubt that the majority of detainees that passed through our custody were tortured. There may very well have been more than one or two bad apples, but this kind of behavior was not tolerated in any unit I ever served in. In fact, I have watched interviews aired on Arab TV where Iraqis claim that detainees in US detention facilities are given Pepsi to drink in Air Conditioned rooms.

At the same end, I am simply not buying the argument that we have lost the moral high ground against AQ. Anyone who believes that has either been living in La La land the last 15 years or has a political agenda.
 


Would you agree (0.00 / 0)
that the US was at least in danger of losing some of its moral high ground (though not TO al-Qaeda!) if some of the practices of the previous administration had been allowed to continue?

I agree that the US has NOT lost the moral high ground to al-Qaeda, and never will! But, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of America on the moral high ground...ya know what I mean?


[ Parent ]
It's possible and (0.00 / 0)
I am certainly not sad to see those policies go, especially given the fact that they now appear to have been ineffective. Nor do I think that things such as AG should be covered up. But at the same end, the story is now clearly being spun here to suit political agendas. By and large, the press doesn't exactly make an effort to mention things like:

A. Al Qaeda are known grade A bullshit artists who have been known to fabricate claims of abuse. Many of them have also have been known to receive interrogation resistance training.

B. Al Qaeda has been known to brutalize and even murder their own fellow inmates behind the walls of US detention facilities, as well as running indoctrination operations. AQ types have also been known to both attack and agitate US personnel who work in US Detention facilities. I bet most people still do not know what a Cocktail-5 is.

C. In spite of the fact that 90+% of GITMO detainees were captured in Afghanistan or Pakistan, over half of them were Arabs, with the overwhelming majority of those Arabs being Saudis and Yemenis. That simply does not pass the smell test.

Granted, we have already acknowledged that such policies do not work, are beneath us, and therefore not practical. We even banned them.  


[ Parent ]
One thing is for sure... (0.00 / 0)
the media - all parts and political persuasions of it - will never do justice, so to speak, to this issue. They are simply not smart enough and always looking for a political fight no matter how much damage it does to the country.

Of course, the political hacks themselves are a whole other sordid story.

Maybe it's good enough to know that torture is no longer the policy of record and be done with it...move on.

I just can't stop thinking that there should be some form of accountability for how the previous administration justified the use of torture as a necessary part of interrogation procedures so that we really can move on.

I could be wrong.


[ Parent ]
I say we just move on. (0.00 / 0)
We now know how utterly boneheaded the policy regarding enhanced interrogation seems to be. But at the same end, we also have the benefit of hindsight and I am 99% sure that any such attempt to bring accountability would turn into a political circus that would accomplish absolutely nothing.

At the same end I don't want to see anyone get the idea that no torture=us being sissies. Just because we have decided not to torture does not mean that we should not kill the Taliban and AQ. Lots and lots and lots of them.


[ Parent ]
There is a HUGE difference - on any number of levels - (0.00 / 0)
between defeating Al-Qaeda, and their ilk, on the battlefield and torturing them in an interrogation room.

And, I would suggest that it has NOTHING to do with whether the US could be considered "sissies" or not, by anyone. This goes to US credibility in the world and whether or not America is capable of global leadership.

Without credibility in the world and the ability to lead it, being considered "sissies" will be the very, very least of concerns - especially when it comes to defeating al-Qaeda!


[ Parent ]
I think we have (0.00 / 0)
been acting a bit like sissies over the years, especially regarding AQ. But I agree that our being sissies has nothing to do with torture or no torture. The things I am getting at are that there are those who seem to think AQ deserves the same rights as US Criminal defendants. There is also the issue of certain times we didn't pull the trigger on guys like bin Laden and Zarqawi.  

[ Parent ]
Although (0.00 / 0)
here is a very good Michael Scheuer interview on harsh interrogation.

http://www.npr.org/templates/s...

Whether you agree or disagree with his points, it is certainly worth listening to.


[ Parent ]
Thanks for the heads up on that Scheuer interview, Fred. (0.00 / 0)
I don't think that I've ever come across a fellow quite like Michael Scheuer with whom I can be in complete, 100% agreement in one moment and then, in the next moment, disagree so vehemently.


[ Parent ]
Well he is (0.00 / 0)
certainly partially correct here. AQ will butcher us and cut our heads off whether we use harsh interrogation techniques and GITMO is a cake walk compared to any prison in the Middle East. Well, we sent some Russians back to Russia and they begged to stay in GITMO. As far as the effectiveness of the interrogation techniques, I am not convinced but only releasing the info will tell for sure.  

[ Parent ]
By the way... (0.00 / 0)
it seems that both our friends Baer and Scheuer agree that President Obama needs now to continue down the freedom of information road and release the rest of the so-called torture memos that show the effectiveness of the 'enhanced interrogation techniques'.

[ Parent ]
With all of the spin we are getting from (0.00 / 0)
the Left and the Right on this, I actually like Baer and Scheuer's idea. Bring out the good, the bad, and the ugly, then let the American people decide for themselves on the interrogation techniques.  

[ Parent ]
Agree... (0.00 / 0)
...are clearly spinning this and oversimplifying the issue. First of all, I highly doubt that the majority of detainees that passed through our custody were tortured...

Fred, despite what Obama and several high ranking Dems wish -- that this issue would go quietly -- it won't.  The reason: it works for people like Friedman, who brings up the topic every other day as red-meat consumption for the local natives, while providing yet another forum for political digs.

You can use all the logic you wish: American forces (other than a few) did not torture as a rule.  And, we don't torture NOW. We are still regarded as an honorable country despite the leftists who wish to drag it down the other way.  We provide the utmost in humanitarian aid, we share technology, and continue to provide assistance to those even labeled as "illegal" within our country.

But that's not good enough.  Gotta have that raw, red meat.  But those of us, like our President, who look at the positives, who believe in the greatness of America and American forces, will be dismissed for not setting up gallows and putting heads (of POLITICAL enemies) in the nooses.


[ Parent ]
In no particular order-- (4.00 / 1)
Interrogation professionals have long maintained that torture doesn't work if what you want to do is get good information.

All indications are that we did torture, and it didn't work to get good information despite the very public thrashing about of Dick Cheney (the former Vice President--I keep forgetting about him and need to be reminded who he was).

What AQ and the Taliban do, did, and why or why not, isn't, shouldn't be, would be an absolute idiocy to be, the basis of the policies of the United States of America.

Creating U.S. policy:  the Constitution of the United States of America and the knowledge of interrogation professionals . . . or . . . al Qaeda, the Taliban, and poor pitiful Dick Cheney.

hmmmm.  



Glad to see this outstanding diary made the Rec list at dKos... (0.00 / 0)
To support your WWII story:

!. My HS German teacher surrendered to US troops shortly after D-day when he was 16. He spent his time as a POW learning English where he said conditions were far superior to those he experienced as a conscripted German soldier. After he returned to Germany, he got his degree and immigrated to the USA. He was an outstanding teacher. Interesting sidenote: our German Class/Club had several kids who had close personal connections to the atrocities of the German Camps that produced some interesting discussions and tested our ability to speak German.

2. Several years ago I had a house guest who was a friend of a friend who at 15 was sent to the Eastern Front near the end of the war. He was quickly wounded and several other soldiers helped get him to the American lines where they surrendered. There he received his first real medical treatment. His leg required 17 surgeries. During that time he met his wife who had 'escaped' the advancing Russian Army after she and her mother were raped repeatedly. Her mother died before they reached our troops, but she was made it to get care and medical assistance. After the war he spent some time with distant relatives in the USA, but returned to Germany to become an Engineer. I truly enjoyed his visit. His English was better than my German. I was sorry that his wife had died but enjoyed listening to his memories of her. One of things that he bought was a collection of US coins minted in 1945.


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