Maj. Gen. Anthony Cucolo III, You're Naive.

Another concern (0.00 / 0)

And considering the atrociously low rates of prosecution for sexual assault, I have to wonder if we will see women who get pregnant after being raped being court martialed.  

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by: Kayla Williams @ Fri Dec 18, 2009 at 20:07:37 PM CST

The problem with prosecuting sexual assaults (0.00 / 0)

is that there are usually only two witnesses, the victim and the accused.  That makes those cases incredibly difficult to bring to trial.

I'm on twitter.

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by: Richard Allen Smith @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 08:44:00 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Actually, this is more rational .... (0.00 / 0)

My first thoughts were similar to yours, but on further thought, this policy is more rational and could make things easier for leadership.  If we now care most about "results," we really don't have to worry as much about where our Soldiers are or whom their with -- ultimately, we only would care about who gets pregnant and who's getting people pregnant.  

Given that people are having sex, I could now concern myself only with those who are doing so with negative (inappropriate) results -- like pregnancy or assault.  Would be interesting if this policy actually allowed leadership to focus more on sexual assault.

Kayla makes an interesting point -- one I can see happen -- but I wonder about the opposite effect -- how many women, once pregnant, will cry assault to both get out of theater and fade from the priority of being prosecuted?  Might we see an increase in cries of "unknown rape" that would take resources away from the mission, redirect MP and leader focus from real crimes, and create hostility between the sexes?

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by: katenumerick @ Fri Dec 18, 2009 at 22:58:19 PM CST

Enforce the Standard (0.00 / 0)

I see what MG Cucolo is trying to do, but he's missing the mark by attempting to enforce an archaic standard on 21st century troops. Soldiers on the battlefield should not get pregnant, but punishment is not the answer, proper sex education and availability of contraceptives is the right way to go.

Or he could just segregate troops by gender, right?  

- Naveed

http://aCitizenSoldier.blogspo...

www.twitter.com/aCitizenSoldier

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by: aCitizenSoldier @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 00:03:30 AM CST

"...enforce an archaic standard on 21st century troops." (0.00 / 0)

Yes, because casual sex never happened before the Iraq War. You guys invented it. That statement isn't the least bit snobbish.

In the Age of AIDS, having unprotected sex is the height of ignorance and irresponsible behavior. Having it in a combat zone compounds the ignorance and irresponsibility.

Are you telling me that "21st century troops" never had sex education in high school?

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by: Jonn Lilyea @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 14:48:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The GOP has virtually ban 'real' sex education by denying funding for (0.00 / 0)

anything but "abstinence only" sex education. Both Bush and the Pope even oppose the use of condoms in Africa despite the HIV/AIDS epidemic there.

When I did some Community Health in the 90s as a school nurse I could not even use the word "intercourse" even if asked for information from students. Forget any real info about protected sex.

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by: deMeme @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 17:03:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh, for Pete's sake (0.00 / 0)

 I knew if it was being discussed on VoteVets, somehow it was going to end up being Bush's fault.

When you were a school nurse "in the 90s" who was the president?

In case you hadn't noticed, Bush is a God in sub-Saharan Africa because of his commitment to the AIDS programs there.

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by: Jonn Lilyea @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 17:51:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Actually, it was when Bush 41 was president... (4.00 / 1)

And a little point of light on the Bush43 AIDS program of supplying the drugs to treat those already infected which is good: his own daughter, Jenna has publicly panned the 'abstinence only' portion of the program in her book "Ana's Story".

Surprise, surprise to find a Progressive Opinion on a Progressive Blog for a Progressive Vet's group. Duh, dude.

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by: deMeme @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 18:22:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"...enforce an archaic standard on 21st century troops." (0.00 / 0)

Jonn, I'm not exactly sure what you're upset about. The point I was trying to make was that as long as people cohabitat, sex will happen. Therefore, proper contraceptives should be available for troops. Do you disagree with that?

Sex education in high school was brilliant - it consisted of my unmarried, pregnant gym teacher telling us not to have sex until we're married. Abstinence only is not sex education, it's preaching ignorance.  

- Naveed

http://aCitizenSoldier.blogspo...

www.twitter.com/aCitizenSoldier

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by: aCitizenSoldier @ Sat Dec 26, 2009 at 04:53:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Abstinence only is not sex education, it's preaching ignorance. (0.00 / 0)

No, excusing unhealthy behavior in an unhealthy environment as inevitable is ignorant. Common sense tells us that to avoid pregnancy (and a host of diseases) abstain from having sex in a combat zone.

But, then common sense isn't something I've seen much of from "progressives".

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by: Jonn Lilyea @ Sat Dec 26, 2009 at 12:24:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, Sorry Boys and Girls (0.00 / 0)

Some of you are old enough to serve and serve and give the ultimate in theaters but not old enough to drink.

Now, apparently, All of you are old enough to serve and serve and give the ultimate but Not Old Enough To Have Consensual Sex and forget consummating a possible in theater marriage {don't know if there's been any, but..} or being responsible enough to serve with your partner on the in theater same base and enjoy each other, to busy there's an occupation going on.

I would think a Commander would have much more to worry about in an occupation theater then who's having consensual sex with whom and is he exempt as well as other command officers...............!

'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

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by: jimstaro @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 09:30:30 AM CST

"All of you are old enough to serve and serve and give the ultimate but Not Old Enough To Have Consensual Sex" (0.00 / 0)

...in a war zone. It seems to me that the overarching event in Iraq right now is a war. Has that been lost on everyone in this discussion? It's not like it's Germany or Japan in the 70s.

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by: Jonn Lilyea @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 13:32:11 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Boy When Some (0.00 / 0)

Miss a point they miss a point!

Oh wait a minute, you're the one trying to stick up for the bush, in above reply, now I get it!!

'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

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by: jimstaro @ Tue Dec 22, 2009 at 15:13:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Missing the point (0.00 / 0)

If anyone has missed a point in this discussion, it's you, Jimmy. Somehow you made the leap from a ban on pregnancy to a ban on sex. Not only did I not stand up for Bush, I missed no points. In fact, from what I've read of your crap here and at your blog, you've made a writing career of missing the point.

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by: Jonn Lilyea @ Wed Dec 23, 2009 at 05:41:30 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Think that this is about responsible adults using contraception while (0.00 / 0)

having sex, not about banning consensual sex.

My guess is the Gen. would like to issue "Implanon" to all his female troops, if he could.

http://www.epigee.org/guide/im...

or maybe the Extended Cycle pill.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.co...

So, the not naive Gen. has issued the order against getting PG while deployed, not an order against hooking up.

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by: deMeme @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 15:19:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I Understand That (0.00 / 0)

And my guess would be, as in any theater, that there's much more going on with taking precautions then without.

'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

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by: jimstaro @ Tue Dec 22, 2009 at 15:15:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

So Kate, since you seem to like to be a bottom line kind of woman, (0.00 / 0)

can you tell me what kind of sex education the Military provides in basic and before deployment? After years and years of abstinence only sex education are there a big bunch of naive women who need open, honest Planned Parenthood info? There is a difference from 'knowing something' in 6th grade and having actionable intel with the means to act when you're sexually active.

So Kate, tell me does the Military make it easy for a single female to obtain birth control without stigma? Do you have to use "need to regulate my period" to get it?

Do you have to pay for the "pill"? Just thinking of risk assessment and cost control, providing free birth control seems like a good investment.

Can you get refills on the pill when you're deployed or is it like Plan B? Do you have to e-mail to get a needed equipment refill? [At one point, deployed females were requesting feminine hygiene products in their care packages]

Do they put condom dispensers in the male and female heads?

Are the numbers of PG deployed women so high that some/many are intentionally getting PG to not serve in-theater?

Maybe the General, with this order, is pushing for the DoD to step up and get real about how they are handling sexuality in the real world.

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by: deMeme @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 16:16:35 PM CST

Another question Kate, can a PG soldier apply for emergency leave (0.00 / 0)

without prejudice to seek a legal abortion? [Obviously, the Military can not perform an abortion since no federal funds can be used for that procedure]

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by: deMeme @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 17:06:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Couple answers (0.00 / 0)

When I was in, and where I was stationed (there is quite a bit of variation), it was fairly easy to get prescriptions for hormonal birth control like the pill while in garrison, and refills were available on deployment. As with all other prescription medication, it was free. However, there was no way to get any gynecological exam during a deployment (in my experience,  doctors require this before prescribing hormonal birth control). So if a woman had a valid prescription before deployment it should be possible to keep it up. [However, Plan B is still important because shit happens, and a backup plan is important to have available.] Condoms were sold in PXs, but were not available in port-a-johns (we did not have male vs female latrines where I was).    

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by: Kayla Williams @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 20:09:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Thx, do you know if OIF has the gyn exam availability now? (0.00 / 0)

Seems like during a year's deployment there would be a strong probability that the needs-preferences of a female soldier for specific types of birth control would change along with other women's health issues.

No argument about Plan B.

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by: deMeme @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 21:20:57 PM CST

[ Parent ]

To the best of my knowledge (0.00 / 0)

They are not available. (If anyone has more recent data on this, please let us know!)

I did not personally find this highly problematic when I was there - since exams should be given yearly, so can be given immediately prior to departure and immediately upon return (although with the numbers of women who would then need exams in the same time frame, that might make scheduling very difficult!). And those women lucky enough to get mid-tour leave could get one then.

Similarly, we could not get "routine" dental care while in country - no dental exam or cleaning during the deployment. No big deal, and dental problems were addressed there (I had two friends get wisdom teeth pulled while deployed).

However, on reflection it is clear that if there are any gynecological health concerns the lack of available care would be a problem. It seems silly that a relatively minor medical gynecological problem would not be manageable in-country and women would have to go to Germany or elsewhere for the exam necessary to prescribe proper treatment.  

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by: Kayla Williams @ Sun Dec 20, 2009 at 08:50:37 AM CST

[ Parent ]

birth control 03-04 and 06-07 (0.00 / 0)

I found it quite easy to get -- the pill, the patch, depo and condoms are all ones I'm familiar with personally or with regard to my Soldiers.  Like Kayla says, you deploy with 90 days of supplies.  In 03 I was in Southern Iraq and we rearranged duty shifts to ensure a contingent of Soldiers went on a LOGPAC down to Kuwait to get their depo shots, b/c the theater wasn't mature enough for them to be distributed throughout at the time -- that would have been May/June 03.  I saw condoms at the time -- couple aid stations in Baghdad/Balad area, I think.  Condoms also at the PX in Kuwait -- both Arifjan and Doha.

06-07 -- Northern Iraq -- right where MG Cucolo is now.  Never had to change where any of my Soldiers were to get birth control -- I think most females I worked with used the pill or the patch at the time.  You can get them via the Tricare  mail order pharmacy like any other med, just depends on your preference, really.  Condoms were in the PX, but also free for the taking at the 82d clinic.  They were both in the seculded waiting area (and so you could take them w/o much observation) and also at the check out desk and where you would be standing if there was a line.  

As for sex ed -- that's covered in some initial entry training, but is not part of theater-specific pre-deployment training.  As I recall it, it was STD-laden and abstinence and condoms were both covered.  

Re Gynocology -- it was available in Kuwait in 03-04, and northern Iraq in 06-07.  Stirrups and everything.  

For leave to be called "emergency," it's tied to a Red Cross message.  All other leave is ordinary leave.  I think your scenario would fall to the commander's discretion.  This happens when family members are having issues -- a commander rearranges the order of who goes on leave at what time -- so it's possible.  From a command perspective, I can't see what harm it would do in terms of Soldier manning -- if she stays pregnant, she goes home; if I let her go home to address "personal matters" and she decides not to go through with it, she's still home.  I don't know what recovery is on that procedure, but if recovery time was longer than her available leave, theoretically she could show up to the nearest post, sign in with the civilian guidance on convalesence, show it to a military doc, get the convalesence approved and then return to duty in theater at the end of it ....

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by: katenumerick @ Sun Dec 27, 2009 at 22:52:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

intentional pregnancies? (0.00 / 0)

forgot to comment on this one.  Who knows if people are doing it intentionally or are simply stupid?  I remember when OIF broke out it seemed like there were people trying hard to get pregnant ... but then again, there were also die hard women who were trying to get to the fight and swearing off men to make sure they went.  

I think to a large degree we've weeded out those faint of heart who are only in it for the $$ and don't add 2+2 and realize their going to combat.  

The issue now may simply be one of timing -- if I'm active duty and gone for one year, home for one or less ... when do we get to have children?  With the length of operations, some women may simply be at that place where they want to be having children, and even if you're magically PG on the first day back from deployment, you're not going to make the next deployment simply b/c you're within the early infancy window of 6 months (although the 4 months would have kept you back as well, given how quickly units are turning around)

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by: katenumerick @ Sun Dec 27, 2009 at 23:10:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A couple thoughts (0.00 / 0)

I'm actually not entirely sure how I feel about this. When in training, I was told (still not sure if this is true or RUMINT) that we could get punished under UCMJ if we got sunburned badly enough to put us temporarily out of commission. So if that is true, pregnancy actually falls under a relatively similar category: both can result from activities that are authorized under existing regulations, should be preventable using basic and well-known precautionary measures, and can sometimes happen even when those precautionary measures are used (I got sunburned so badly that my skin blistered at the 2nd Lollapalooza I went to despite applying SPF 50 every half hour, probably due to a combination of being really fair skinned and sweating a lot in that sun with no shade available, it was a crappy venue).

So if a commander is willing to punish people for doing something stupid that prevents them from doing their jobs, well, that's not exactly unheard of in the military.

The difference between the situations, which I tried to point out, is that preventative measures are NOT always available, and that sexual assault is a big concern. I would hope that to mitigate these issues, the same commander would ensure that Plan B is available and have a comprehensive plan in place to reduce sexual assault coupled with vigorous prosecution if it does occur.

As for the suggestion that everyone engage in abstinence, married couples are allowed to share quarters in Iraq. Suggesting that married couples sleeping in the same bed should not have sex is silly - and undermines that policy's goals of increasing morale and retention.

Don't forget to wear sunblock.

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by: Kayla Williams @ Sun Dec 20, 2009 at 09:08:41 AM CST

This article contains more info: (0.00 / 0)

NO sex with foreign nationals
NO over-nights unless married and approved
Preganancy may lead to court martial, if...

I still read the order as a heads up to use reliable birth control rather than as an order banning sex. I also see this order possibily opening up a dialogue that could result in forcing the DoD to recognize the need to support such issues as making Plan B and gyn health care available in-theater.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl...

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by: deMeme @ Sun Dec 20, 2009 at 11:58:05 AM CST

[ Parent ]

What are they going to do? (0.00 / 0)

Will the Army now provide Abortion on demand so that soldiers are in compliance? I'm sure the (Marxist) Obama Administration will be all for that...

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by: EddieK @ Sun Dec 20, 2009 at 10:54:58 AM CST

If one of the soldiers in my unit on whom (0.00 / 0)

I depended got pregnant, I'd want to court-martial both responsible individuals.  Kate, with all due respect, I think you're using a straw man here: Cucolo isn't addressing the issue of soldiers having sex.  He's addressing the issue of those who have sex and then cause a detrimental effect on their unit in a combat theater.  I would be the last person to try and prevent soldiers from having sex in theater, as it would be a waste of time.  But pregnancy is whole different deal.  I support the policy.

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by: The Dude @ Mon Dec 21, 2009 at 10:22:57 AM CST

you have to admit (0.00 / 0)

court-martialing is a bit extreme. Think about the effect on the child, who had no part in the decision. It's mother would be incarcerated through the pregnancy where it would be difficult to maintain the level of nutrition needed for a pregnant woman. As soon as it is born it would be removed from the care of the mother, which well not only hinder the mother/child relationship but also the child's mental development with the prospect of breast feeding and other mother/child activities that promote development not being an option. And if the mother refuses to give up the name of the father, who will take care of it? Also, you're taking away money from that soldier which would be used to care for the child and possibly the mother's livelihood.

I might be able to support nonjudicial punishment, a letter of reprimand or a poor evaluation (although I'm not even sure about that), but court-martialing the mother just goes too far, as it punishes the child for the sins of the mother.

I'm on twitter.

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by: Richard Allen Smith @ Mon Dec 21, 2009 at 16:15:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Fair enough. (0.00 / 0)

Make it non-judicial.  I think a good standard response would be reduction in rank by two grades, redeployment, and transfer to a different unit.  E-6 to E-4.  O-3 to O-1.  If you can't keep from getting pregnant (or getting someone pregnant) in a combat zone, then you're not responsible enough to lead soldiers or ride in a convoy.  Jesus Christ.  Attention to detail.  But then, I assume most of the pregnancies are deliberate anyway.  So for those cases, this acts as a deterrent.  

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by: The Dude @ Mon Dec 21, 2009 at 19:40:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

security cameras in the parking lots (0.00 / 0)

my son once asked why stores put security cameras in the parking lots where criminals can see them.  I told him that if security cameras are visible, the number of people who actually steal will be much smaller than those who think about stealing from the store.  Same principle here.  Court martial-able offense?  Probably not, but at least it sets out the significance of the matter and it doesn't tie a commander's hands when the matter comes up.

Saw that it's being recinded.  Am sorry to see that, since it was one of the more rational orders about sex I've seen.  

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by: katenumerick @ Sun Dec 27, 2009 at 23:04:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Cucolo finds his all female soldiers "invaluable". He wiill review all (0.00 / 0)

situations that lead to pregnancies. Since Cucolo took command in Nov there have been 4 pregnancies reviewed with none resulting in court martial. The most severe punishment was given to a double-dumb male who was committing adultery.

More clarification here:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US...

This order was part of general memo outlining acceptable behavior that Cucolo issued when he took command.  

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by: deMeme @ Tue Dec 22, 2009 at 02:14:44 AM CST

just right (0.00 / 0)

this is just the right thing to do,..in order to protect the women rights...

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by: deniseweisley @ Tue Dec 22, 2009 at 08:30:12 AM CST

He's Walken It Back....... (4.00 / 1)

General Backs Off on Court Martials for Pregnant Soldiers

Maj. Gen. Anthony Cucolo: 'I Do Not Ever See Myself Putting a Soldier in Jail for This'...>>>>>

'Hearts and Minds, "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

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by: jimstaro @ Tue Dec 22, 2009 at 15:10:57 PM CST

Good catch! (0.00 / 0)

"No U.S. soldier ever dies in vain because they're carrying out the missions of their commander in chief. And we honor all the service that they've provided." - Barack Obama

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by: Chris LeJeune @ Tue Dec 22, 2009 at 16:01:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And everyone wonders (0.00 / 0)

why progressives are generally not taken seriously on military matters?

Sorry but pregnancy and cohabitation in a combat zone are just about the most insane concepts that I have ever heard of.

Are we in a war or a fucking contingency exercise?  

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by: FredUSMC @ Sat Dec 26, 2009 at 16:45:23 PM CST

Yeah... (0.00 / 0)

Nobody listened to General Clark.

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by: djtyg @ Sun Dec 27, 2009 at 06:06:16 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Surely, you jest. LOL. Progressives are willing to address the "facts of (0.00 / 0)

life" in a combat zone. When has war ever stopped intercourse?  Progressive reality is better than the Abstinence only crowd who refuse to deal with the reality of sexuality.

Seems Cucolo's memo has brought about discussion of issues like Contraception supplies only available on a "space available" basis down range, and NO Plan B which is an OTC. Is he really equating these with abortion?  Not a good 'battle plan'. That's getting Congress and the Internet crowd involved to protect women's reproductive health and rights. I see that the ACLU is inviting female Vets to contact them. I'm sure that the DoD wants that to not happen.

Now,  Cucolo claims no women in his command are complaining. Right, this guy issues rules about pregnancy so extreme that they have been countermanded by Odierno. The women in his command are going to be willing to step up and talk about these issues with him--NOT. Seems like he invoked the 'no highway option' and closed the door on  any possible dialog with his troops.

http://blogs.stripes.com/blogs...

In 1960 when the first birth control pill became available in the US, Elivis Prestley completed his time in the US Army and had this Top 40 Hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

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by: deMeme @ Sun Dec 27, 2009 at 08:49:31 AM CST

[ Parent ]

People (0.00 / 0)

shoplift and drive drunk too and will continue to do such things. Does that make them acceptable behavior? No.

Sorry but getting pregnant in a combat zone is unacceptable behavior. Nuff said.

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by: FredUSMC @ Mon Dec 28, 2009 at 17:56:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

are we in a war? (0.00 / 0)

um ... actually Fred, it looks like you've been away from Iraq awhile now.  My husband's there now, and he says it's significantly improved even from fall 07 when I was last there.  

Iraq?  No, I wouldn't say war -- we're definitely working the stability end of full spectrum ops, and it continues to look more like garrison every day.

Afghanistan?  Yeah, war.  Still a counter-insurgency war, so a lot of the "bomb them to hell" strategy won't be effective, though.

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by: katenumerick @ Sun Dec 27, 2009 at 23:34:15 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not a bad policy (0.00 / 0)

It's not a bad policy. Enforcing it is much more difficult. They should also make everyone take some classes on sexual education and sexual contact in the military. Again!

Buy Wrecking Balm

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by: tom74 @ Fri May 21, 2010 at 16:58:08 PM CDT